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2 Jul 2010

Sir Malcolm Sargent / RPO - Vaughan Williams. Symphony 9 - BBC 1958

Ralph Vaughan Williams:  Symphony no.9, in E minor   
I. Moderato maestoso   ~  II. Andante sostenuto   ~  III. Scherzo: Allegro pesante   ~  IV. Andante tranquillo  
16/44 FLAC  Mega Download
24/96 FLAC  Mega Download
Royal Philharmonic Orchestra  conducted by  Sir Malcolm Sargent   (UK/World premiere performance: Royal Festival Hall, 2nd April 1958)
BBC Radio 3 FM - 1st repeat: 2001 (2nd repeat 2002 ? - this TX used).   Originally broadcast: BBC Home Service.  
FM source:  Meridian 104 Tuner (modified) > Pioneer MJ-D707 Minidisc.      Full Frequency & Dynamic-Range.... 
16/44: Pioneer MJ-D707 > Pioneer PDR-509 CD-RW recorder ..... 24/96:  Pioneer MJ-D508 (24bit D/A) > Terratec DMX 6Fire 24/96.
Concert announcement / "The Times" - review / Frequency Analysis  >>>
  
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Andrew Rose's  "Pristine Audio - RMCR 'advert' comment re: this, claimed, 'rarity':   "Your offering has an upper audio frequency ceiling of about 13k" .....
Actually, the BBC cut-off FM broadcasts  @ 15kHz - and the Audacity Frequency Analysis, below, shows my MiniDisc transfer goes right up to that frequency/19kHz 'pilot tone'..
  
From the above RMCR link:

> Hi There!!!
> It was YOU who described the RVW9 tape as being found in Mr Foreman's
> 'shed'......
> Re: the MD frequency-range/digital compression.....
> Your R2R copy (@ what speed/quality of tape condition/set-up?) comes,
> as mine, from the 'later FM' TX - which is a) limited to a max 15kHz
> b) is subject to 'Optimod' digital compression (not to mention other
> digital circuitry in the TX chain).

> If your "renowned writer, musicologist and expert on British classical
> music" was able to have supplied you a CD-R direct from the FM
> transmission it could be (ever-so..) slightly 'better' than my
> MiniDisc..(which, however, isn't limited to '13kHz..) *but it wasn't*.
> So: A Load of Old 'Eyewash' and Red-Herrings - **as per usual**.

> What you really don't like is 'competition' for your, invariably,
> over- priced (and over-processed) inflated-ego 'productions'.
> But..do you apologise to Decca for 'ripping-off' material that they've
> issued on CD just a few years previously (with claims that your
> dubbing from Geriatric LP is 'superior' to their master-tapes)??

> As to me 'pouring scorn' on your stuff...I'll point-out that I've
> 'pointed-out' a vast number of  'errors' in the claims/statements you
> make here/on your site - which I put down to your general lack of
> knowledge..

> I would also point out that, over a 20month blog period, my 'spoilers'
> have amounted to scarcely more than *50minutes* recording time...
> One side of Galliera/Respighi (you didn't include the other) Weldon's
> 'In the South' (most folks wouldn't want Ripley's 'Sea Pictures) + the
> EP 'Handel/Elgar (I  also included the other side) - and That after my
> having previously uploaded the Weldon/German 10" LP...

> Then there's the Mengelberg/Beethoven (a claimed 'best seller' of
> yours - so, presumably, my 'popular' upload hardly diminished your
> 'earnings'..??) - when I had Already made some dubbings - but it was
> taking a long time to remedy the defects..which you then stated I
> hadn't attempted to do - and that my LP transfer was
> 'defective' (sounded f...ing better than your 224 mp3 'sample').

> "your blog..which hadn't seen any new output for nearly three weeks
> and is headed "no new posts for the time being"..

> That's right - I've decided to re-prioritize my time - so less of it
> iscurrently being devoted to the blog.  However, if you read recent
> 'comments' I did mention I'd make the occasional upload before re-
> instating regular uploads..& the next is likely to be a delayed-from-
> last-year of the 'Chorale Populaire de Paris' ('Commies') founded in
> 1935 in 6 otherwise unavailable (?) 1936 recordings from superb pre-
> war French Odeon 78s - in time for Bastille Day.

> Any objections??
> You've got 10days to find them in someones 'potting shed' (or
> yours..)...and get-out your ambient stereo 'spoiler'..
Ah!
The good old days of St. Arthur and the Warlords of The Round Disc, fighting
against the Compressors and other Devils of the copying re-Masters!



To tinear@ymail.com
Sent: 27 September 2010 11:26:19
To: tinear@ymail.com

When I first read the email from Pristine Audio addressed to you, that was on the Music Parlour blog I thought it a joke,it can not possibly be for real.Can it?
Food on table,starving children! it reads like one of those scam emails from Nigeria.

I enjoy visiting your blog on a regular basis,mainly for the information on labels etc,and do the odd download of something I am interested in hearing,
I have no view re charging for Music Parlour,it's your blog and your call.I do not doubt you put a lot of time and effort in a excellent and professional (maybe that's Pristine's problem) undertaking.

I would suggest to Pristine Audio if they are that worried by you,do it better,problem solved.That is how the world works.

Reply:

Yes - that was for real.
The sort of email one should never send - and a 'Sword of Damocles' if ever there was.
I hadn't intended ever using it - (ie, he 'could' have relied upon his 'confidence' in me) but now wish to draw a line - as, over the years, he has been taking people for fools - and I've absolutely lost interest in 'correcting' his errors/misinformation on RMCR...which he considers as 'destroying' his business (yeh, right!!).

He is, no doubt, a decent 'nice' person - but seemingly has acquired many 'enemies' - either due to his 'success' (turning 'lead into gold') - or the fact he will charge heavily for 'synthesised' transfers of LP/78 - or, ie, very easy copying of BBC broadcasts (as in the RVW 9/Sargent - which he had the nerve to describe as 'rare' - hence my upload - which I'd anyway previously intended doing as had uploaded the Sargent/Moiseiwitsch's from the same 2000/1 BBC series 'BBC Legends') - or by the fact he has got his stuff 'advertised' all-over - pretty annoying when one realises how 'cheap'/commonplace most of the originating LP's are...
remely revealing - and in such contrast to what you will see being peddled elsewhere!
 



23 comments:

  1. Hello Buster. I thought this was a BBC Legends CD. Anyhow, can't now recall the Radio 3 TX date/s (normally logged). Luckily this was from a BBC taping - rather than their ghastly/crackly 'transcription discs'. Took just minutes to edit the MD (which made a change..). If I recall correctly (from the first -2001?- TX) Sargent paid-out for (at least) the orchestral rehearsals.

    ReplyDelete
  2. Many thanks. I am a RVW fan and treasure the Complete Symphonies performed by Previn on RCA LPs (my into to Vaughan Williams), the Boult (mono & stereo) LPs, and the Handley CD set on CfP.

    Looking forward to burning the WAV to CD and listening tonight. I'll keep the FLAC on my hard drive.

    ReplyDelete
  3. Tin Ear,

    Forgot to ask. Is there a difference in sound quality between the FLACs and WAVs you post? I cannot hear any, so I have been discarding the WAVs after burning and archiving the FLACs.

    ReplyDelete
  4. Hello Joe. I'm uploading FLAC/WAV as, using MegaUpload, there appears a problem (at least early-on) with them being 'unavailable'..so, hopefully, at least one is immediately accessible. I've never been too convinced that FLAC is 'identical' to the WAV - but, mathematically, apparently, they are. Any difference may well lay in the decoder/s used?? I always felt (on the computer) that it made the FLAC seem less 'subtle'/a bit 'sterile'.
    NB: I've been looking to upload the mono 1959 PYE LP of Barbirolli's 'London' for some time - particularly as they rarely are found in 'mint' condition/generally sold poorly.

    ReplyDelete
  5. Maybe it *wasn't on CD -but, thinking back, believe it was initially broadcast in the BBC Legends series in 2001 - but, as with some of the Moiseiwitsch I've uploaded, not all were issued in that BBC CD series. Anyway..this is likely better than a 'competitor's' dubbing from a tape copy of the TX..!!

    ReplyDelete
  6. What a wonderful blog. Thanks for this great historical document. I'm sure it will be a great musical experience too, with Malcolm Sargent conducting

    ReplyDelete
  7. sensemaya08 July, 2010

    Esential listening.It seems that Sargent knew it was conducting the premiere of one of the greatest symphonies of the 20 th century.
    Thank you so much-and keep going!!

    ReplyDelete
  8. The 'close' recorded quality certainly lends a degree of 'concentration' to the performance: retained as it was so worthwhile. Hadn't originally intended uploading it on its own but, due to its popularity (Sargent is deemed 'unpopular') can now consider some other of his mono British music LP's. There's a Tallis Fantasia/Elgar Wand of Youth #2 (BBC SO - HMV BLP 1019) - long unavailable + a variety of other 'not on CD' titles. But those won't take just a couple of minutes to edit...

    ReplyDelete
  9. Wow, wonderful to have this performance available! It's by no means flawless, of course (a few slips in the flugel part), but the interpretation is rather good! Almost as good as the 1958\9 Boult recording on Everest.

    Also, I really don't understand those comments from Pristine Audio. Putting him out of business by preparing your own transfer of the broadcast? I mean yes, someone posting *his* transfer online for free - that would be dreadful - but when someone puts effort into doing something themselves, comments like that are wholly unwarranted. Not to mention petty. I was going to buy their Boult RVW 6 recording, but now, after reading those comments, I'm not so sure...

    ReplyDelete
  10. He disliked the idea of 'competition' (at the time, on RMCR, he described it as: 'a spiteful spoiler') - but it was Me who'd uploaded Sargent from the BBC Archives - in February - which 'just happened' to coincide with an approach from one of his 'helpers' with this particular recording (a poor cassette copy..) . Until I got broadband, in March, I was very restricted in file-size/upload time (2hours for 20MB..) - so, when I saw this being offered, decided to upload from my MiniDisc - which took virtually no time/effort. The Pristine 'variant' is from a R2R tape found/kept 'in a shed'. The probability is that it was less-accurate a copy; so you might as well save your money - as almost 400 others have done!!
    BTW - I do have the Boult RVW 6 - the LSO version (HMV Treasury LP) - which I should upload sometime quite soon.

    ReplyDelete
  11. As to the RVW 6, I found transfers of the individual sides of the 78s on a website called CHARM a few months ago, but that doesn't seem to be working now. Can't wait to hear how the LP version sounds (I've got a copy on its way to me actually!).

    ReplyDelete
  12. Must admit I had heard about the above and other similar tirades but had never really read through the contents. My reason for not joining you people at RMCR is precisely this type of exchange. I saw similar ones in the Toscanini groups and decided my soul needed GOOD MUSIC and peace/rest from the political wars. Mind you, I think these wars should be waged but they are not for me.

    Had no idea that RVW existed in Sir Malcolm's discography. I learned from his conducting more than I can speak of. He was there all the time back in the late 50's and early 60's. I failed to appreciate at the time how great a musician he was. So this is very welcome. I am a late bloomer to RVW but I got there. I will enjoy this no end. Thanks very much for a job well done on something that should have made it to modern data formats.... Speaks well of you but not of those who are doing the marketing on historical recordings on CD and paid digital downloads....

    Come to think on it, this is probably BETTER!!! A very grateful Puck!

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I'd bought a RVW/Sargent LP whilst at school (Serenade/Wasps/Unknown Region/Greensleeves - LSO): originally ALP - then CLP - then finally on MFP) - is/was on CD in stereo...and there's a BBC SO 'Tallis' here (the original intended coupling for the RVW 9 - but that ancient 10" LP required quite some editing - so was delayed for a few months).

      This post has been hugely 'successful' over the past 3 years - and the sound really is '99.9%' identical to the broadcast as the FM tuner/MD recording was of the finest technical quality (ie; 'better' than the actual sound of the original BBC taping...)...

      But I really took exception to a free-to-air 'recent' BBC broadcast (quickly repeated) being described/sold as 'rare': hence the 'speedy' transfer/upload!

      ;~))

      Delete
  13. Hey-ho! Thanks for the upgrade.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Not sure it's too much of an 'upgrade' - but having bought the Gizmo (Feb 2011, I see - so time has 'dragged' a bit recently...darned blog-effort, no doubt) decided I might as well try-it-out....

      ....not to mention that 'Mr Pristine' has just offered 'premium' 24/96 downloads from ropey 1960 BBC TV sound - and, not forgetting, those pirated from CDs .....Roll-Up, Roll-Up.... LOL!!!

      Anyway, may try an LP/78 transfer or two - though it's very inconvenient to heave a Turntable to where the Desktop resides...so would use one I've not got connected - Garrard 301 or Thorens 124 - or maybe the Linn - none of those used for LP/78 transfers..

      Delete
  14. Thank you. Didn't compare to old, but the 24/96 sounds, well, splendid!

    After reading these and a few articles praising mr. Rose's work, it occurred to me that what he's doing is perfectly analogous to what some book publishers are doing to certain rare (and not so rare) 19th century books with their horrid print-on-demand editions (priced double the actual worth), all the while going on about how they publish them because they think the books are important and deserve to be read. So what mr. Rote is doing is perfectly normal and 'accepted'.
    Had i found his store before knowing anything about what he really does, i probably would've bought something. Glad i didn't.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Bit of a long-running-saga..

      Mr.P's game, for some time, has been to 'transform' *historically important* recordings/performers - as that's mostly where the dosh can be made (from the many delirious collectors; seemingly desperate for any claimed 'improvement'..!).

      Of course, you might think it 'odd' that the source might be some current/cheap CD compendium (say Toscanini/Callas..); so there's rather more than a '100% markup'- even if only ONE CD-R/download was flogged 'to the unsuspecting' (which they could well be; 'thanks' to various bent/clueless reviewers.

      This (aside from the effective 292mbps coding) is about as good as the BBC taping will sound - at least 'as broadcast' - especially due to being relayed to the transmitters via compression systems - also the original recording (as usual at that time) having a dynamic-range limited to around 30dB - not to mention being copied to CD-R.

      Delete
    2. i see, yes. And just like those book publishers, mr. P- must know his products are not top quality - it's the brazen cynicism that's really irritating. And that 'personal' email to you - must be a joke - and since he lies about his wares, i wouldn't believe a word he says to begin with.
      Since he gets so much publicity there's no way your comments and blog could have a significant effect on his sales - even though, they should! - and he should re-think his business model to something with more integrity. It's difficult also to imagine he, being a professional, wouldn't know how to restore the recordings better than he does.

      But it's been my opinion for quite some time already, with the quality of a lot of today's classical music performances and recordings being what it is - especially the 'stars' who are hyped up by the music industry...a lot of the public, well, deserve what they get.

      Delete
  15. Some of his stuff is 'OK' - not least that derived from CD (where he doesn't need to smother the sound with 'noise-reduction')- but the deceit shown is certainly obvious to the 'wary'..

    IE: If you went through his site I'd doubt you'd find a single reference to the source being from CD; the 'euphemism' is 'First Issued As' - then quoting an original LP #: see the latest 'release' - PIATIGORSKY - Walton/Dvorak: where he even states 'Columbia' RB/SB - when it's RCA Victor; so what's the betting-odds Those are bootlegged from CD...

    BTW: if (as he claimed) his tape went to 'almost 16kHz'(BBC broadcast of the RVW9 ) then I should've mentioned that could imply his 'mates' source was actually DAB Radio 3 - which has a data-rate of just 192 kbps...very inferior to FM sound: which has a brick-wall filter @ 15KHz - and my MD shows a 'textbook' 19kHz pilot tone - but he claimed it was limited in frequency-range.

    Load of old MrPee Eyewash..as I stated then!!

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. i see - thanks for explaining a bit further. Though, even if 'some' of his wares are acceptable, i shan't support his little 'survivalist' enterprise.

      Delete
  16. Thank you! I downloaded the 24-96 - though on reflection, the minidisc recording would only be 24/44.1 at best. There's a fair bit of coughing in the audience! At least most of them kept it down till the ends of the movements... The music sounds very immediate.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Maybe the BBC will do a re-broadcast sometime...but I don't think they now capture the 'immediacy' that I'd hear in the early '70's via the Leak Stereofetic FM tuner (have 3..) due to the 'digital gizmos' in the TX chain..too much like 'Muzak' nowadays..

      Delete